An Interview with Lale

This past week the Iranian government released 15 British soldiers after capturing them from disputed waters. The dispute over Iran's nuclear program continues at the UN. President Ahmadinejad, well known for his controversial rhetoric, possibly faces a loss of domestic support. And Americans are by now, all too familiar with being portrayed as 'the Great Satan' in the streets of Tehran. But how many of us actually get an opportunity to speak with Iranians about the issues, the people and the government that was branded by President Bush as part of the Axis of Evil? I was lucky enough to have a chat with one Iranian-expat here in Turkey, Lale, as we discussed, among many things, the good and evil everywhere.

Lale, where did you live in Iran?
I was born in Tabriz and I lived there for 14 years. My father was a soldier so we moved a lot. I lived in Tehran after that and moved to Istanbul when I was 18. My brother lived in Sweden at the time and I wanted to go there too. Because of the political situation, I had to come to Istanbul first, to get a visa. But then something strange happened. I fell in love with Istanbul. It's a city of opposites, so full of life and colors. You could see white, black, rich and poor...

And my brother used to write to me about life in Sweden. He often complained of the relationships there. For example, in Iran it's easy to make friends. But western people have a different concept of friendship. You may say hello and chat with your neighbor one day and the next day, they may not say hello and ignore you. You may have some bad experiences in Iran and some people might cheat you, but it's easy to say hello to people and it is very open to strangers. So, I never wanted to leave Turkey. I learned about life here in the city and clubs, went to a university and ... married a Turkish man.

How does your family feel about you living abroad? They don't want you to come back?
No, no. For years Iranian people have reached a big wall. Nothing can change. We repeat ourselves. Young people change, but the system is the same. And my family wants to stay in Iran. Their roots and history is there. I came here so young at 18 and my brothers left at 23. We had the chance and I established my life here. It's not easy for them to start a new life in a foreign country. It's not easy at the age of 40. But it is no problem for my family to visit. We don't need a visa. Ataturk and the Shah omitted visas. I have a brother in England and the US and it's not hard to get a visa for Canada, Europe, England, but it is difficult to get one to the US. But my brother in the US often flies back and forth.

When did you leave Iran and what was the country like then?
It was 1988 at the end of the war. At the time, in Tehran, there were no theatres, no cinemas or museums. I had a bad experience there and sad memories. At school, we couldn't laugh or wear colorful clothes. Just grey, black or dark brown. That's one reason I was so attracted to Istanbul.

So, you were born before the Islamic Revolution (1979). How did life change before and after?
It changed alot. It got worse and worse. Even though it was not pleasing and there were different classes, people could bare it before the revolution. The government respected some rights. At first people were optimistic because they thought the religious people couldn't govern, but they could and they did. One month after the revolution, a girl couldn't walk outside with her brother without soldiers stopping them, and demand to see documents proving their relationship. After a few months, the government pressured women to cover their heads. They even supported gangs to harass women who walked around uncovered. And now, it's compulsory.

And now? What is life like in Iran now?
Now, things have really changed. Tehran is like a western country. Things changed fast because of technology. Now the police don't stop people. Women cover their heads, but they are more [laughs] fashionable. The youth culture isn't political, but they see the singers and lifestyles of the West and Turkey. And this exerts some pressure on the rules. They have their own rules.

Really? What do you mean?
Most young people are the same and they are a very large number, so the leaders feel their pressure. They know [the youth] are not political but they like the western lifestyle. They want to have fun and party. Alcohol is not legal, but you can find it easily. They don't sell it in the shops. But in the daytime you can go to the shops, make an order, and beer can be delivered at night. I don't think it's good, however. Because it's forbidden, they consume too much. Everybody just wants to have fun, drink and enjoy their time in cafes -- instead of reading books or doing research.

What will the young people do as they get older?
They can produce a big market for western countries. [laughs] That's what upsets me. They are against this system, but they are not for a better one. They just want to have fun, and produce like western countries. So if the future is a choice between this system or being a market for westerners, I would choose the latter because in the current one you can't breathe.

How is the social life compared to Saudi Arabia, where one friend of mine who lived there described as a place where "fun is illegal" -- with secret parties and sexy dresses under burkas?
In Iran, there are lots of parties and they are not secret. The women wear beautiful evening dresses. But they are quiet about the parties. If soldiers come and see you dancing with a strange man, it will be a problem. But the government can't do anything, even though they know about a party. Just in some cases do they interrupt them. If they want to focus on certain people, they can come and arrest them.

How much does the government control information and the Internet?
They try to control everything. Most important to them is censoring any criticism of this system. But the people know, for example, in the US, you can criticize your government.

Speaking of which, what do you think about the relationship between the US and Iran?
I feel sorry for the situation in Iran. I love Iran. It is a rich country, and I'm not talking about petrol. I'm talking about history. I'm still learning about the history of Iran. But when people criticize Iran, like politicians on TV or people from anywhere, I won't feel well. Iran doesn't deserve it. For example, when you think of Iran, what comes to mind?

Well I think of your president and a friend of mine, whose family was from Iran -- and there's a big difference between your president and my friend.
[laughs] When hearing the name Iran, "dark clouds" come to people's minds. The real face is different. I divide a country into background, history, people, lifestyle, etc. The governments change, but the history continues. Not just Iranians are guilty [for creating this current situation]. True, they didn't choose the right government. But there was help by western countries. I think western governments offer democracy but not for others, only for themselves. The US, England, and France helped this political system. What makes me angry is that they pretend they didn't help, that it's just the Iranian people who are guilty. The west produced a war between Iran and Iraq for 8 years for the sake of selling weapons. They supported the war. There was a crisis in the weapon industry, so the West exploited the poorness of Iraq and Iran. The war was a good opportunity. A good chance for the defense industry of America.

Are you also referring to the relations between the West and Iran in the 1950's?
In the 1950's, [Prime Minister] Mossadegh was against a monarchy and against colonization. The Iranian people supported him, but the US supported the Shah. It was about oil. [At the time,] Iranians didn't benefit from their oil -- England did. Mossadegh wanted to change that, but the West sent money to the Shah and Mossadegh was overthrown, sent to prison and died. Today, people feel strongly about that, the young as well. They are not active, but they know what happened. It was a big historical event.

Is this memory related to the Iranian view of the US "as the Great Satan?"
No, that is not related to those events. It reflects a black character of the government. Nothing can be totally bad or good of course. America thinks that everything and all of the events in the world have two main parts; positive, negative, advantages, disadvantages, black or white. They think of benefits, selling weapons, creating war. They shouldn't say they are for democracy. They are not for democracy. They are for the benefit of themselves. And by they, I mean western governments. At the same time, I've learned alot and like many of the aspects of the West. I only talk about the governments.

In Iran's government, who is in control? President Ahmadinejad or Ayatollah Khamenei? Or the clerics?
I say none of them and all of them. There are several conflicts between them. The power changes. There is a hidden war among them. Honestly, I don't follow them. There is no difference between them. I really don't care about them. I'm against the system, but the faces are all the same.

These days, the big international issue is Iran's nuclear program. Do you think it is for peaceful purposes or not?
Nuclear power isn't for peace in any country. Not in the west or elsewhere. Can you say that it's peaceful in the US? It's a threat against others. [The Iranian leaders] don't want to use [a nuclear weapon] because that will spell the end of the world. They want to use it as a threat. But I'm optimistic about this. If they use it, it would be World War III. The end of life on earth.

We spoke about Iran and the West, what about Iran and it's neighbors? Do they have good relations?
How can this government have good relationships? But the people, not the government, they really love foreigners. Americans, Pakistani, etc. And something is very strange. There was an eight year war with Iraq, but they don't hate Iraq. It was really a war between their governments. History has shown [Iranians] like foreigners, anyone.

And Saddam? Are they happy Saddam is gone?
No no no. I think it wasn't fair, because other countries invaded and killed him.

There's no joy, relief or happiness that he's gone?
I don't think so. I'm not sure. They are not happy. They see the bigger tragedy [that is Iraq]. Bush is as guilty as Saddam, why should Saddam be killed? It's not fair.

So, as an American travelling to Tehran, what could I expect?
They would love you. They like foreigners -- not the government, but the people. They will invite you in the house, you will have a good time. The government will ask what do you want to do here? why are you here? There are tours and they are very expensive but I don't know why. But I don't recommend you go alone. Last summer I went to Tehran, and on the plane I saw a Belgium couple. They had no problems, and liked it very much. The case can be different for Americans, if you consider the government. In Iran, everyone can be a president. It's not like the US, with rules. A soldier can act like a president. Even for Iranians, corruption is big. At the borders by car, a soldier can easily ask for a bribe from foreigners -- even my husband.

I have read that second to Israel, Iran has the largest Jewish population in the Middle East. How are they treated?
I didn't know that. The largest used to be in Iran, until after the revolution. They are not treated fair. I can't hear about them. It is dangerous for them to live in Iran. I never hear about them.

I find you very optimistic and independent in a country like Turkey, that seems very melancholic to me. Do you notice that too?
If you want to hide your real character, the best way is to talk about others. It is common for some people here to always want to be in a group. It is difficult and dangerous to be different. I like this about westerners--individuality is very important. Over centuries [in this region], it's dangerous to insist on your own ideas. And to be in a group you must talk about others to show you belong in the group -- it's childish. For example, we can be friends, but we can't criticise each other's ideas. That's not common here. I've always tried to live as an individual. I know I'm a part of a group, but I don't want to lose my individuality. Sometimes it is difficult here. But I feel happier if I continue doing this.

What are the top 3 most difficult things about living in Turkey, and your top 3 favorite things about Turkey?
Being an individual. This is most important. That is not a common mentality. Others may be noise pollution. On buses, people easily shout and don't care about others. And in Turkey and Iran: the lack of a system, organization. Everything goes back to the politics. We don't have traditions that respect being on time, or inform people before asking for something. It needs to start on top. For centuries, people have been used to this.
But, it is full of life. I mean the people are friendly, energetic, helpful. The same as Iran. It is not hard to find friends. You can easily find people to talk to. I like it very much.

And the future of Iran? Are you optimistic?
I'm optimistic. In history, there are lots of ups and downs, lots of wars. If we can cope with this government, it can get better. Although the young people are not my ideal, they are a kind of rebellion. Nothing is stable. If something moves, it can get better. I think [the government] will change because people hate them. If people hate something, it can't last forever. Although the majority doesn't support the government, they have no power to change it. But they hate them. Really. The next Iran will be stronger than this one. They will have faced Islam. They will have solved the religious problem. The next Iran will know this. The government will believe in something else -- secularism.

Well, thanks for talking with me.
Thank you for traveling to past days.